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    Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

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    Nick E. Paradise
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    Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Nick E. Paradise on Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:41 pm

    Okay thanks to the wonderfully helpful members of this forum i've gathered together my first team for competitive battling! I'm going for something simple yet effective, that i can use as a basis upon which to transition into tougher and more complex teams. My main strategy with this team will be to lay down Stealth Rocks and end the battle as quick and effectively as possible.

    Things to consider when looking over my team:
    - This is primarily an offensive team structure to keep things simpler.
    - All things competitive battling are new to me, some terms/strategies that are second nature to you, may not be to me.
    - I'm not particularly attached to any of these pokemon, so changing or substituting any of them is an option.
    -Lastly, I'm a big boy, so any and all criticism is welcome. You won't hurt my feelings, promise. Smile

    Donphan - Impish @ Leftovers
    252 HP / 252 Def / 6 Atk
    Stealth Rock
    Earthquake
    Rapid Spin
    Ice Shard

    Milotic - Bold @ Leftovers
    252 HP / 252 SpD / 6 SpA
    Ice Beam
    Rest
    Sleep Talk
    Surf

    Flygon - Naughty @ Choice Band
    252 Atk / 252 Spe / 6 HP
    Earthquake
    Flamethrower
    Outrage
    U-Turn

    Gengar - Timid @ Life Orb
    252 SpA / 252 Spe / 6 Def
    Protect
    Hidden Power Fire
    Shadow Ball
    Focus Blast

    Scizor - Adamant @ Choice Band
    248 HP / 252 Atk / 10 Spe
    Bullet Punch
    Pursuit
    U-Turn
    Superpower

    Heatran - Naive @ Choice Scarf
    252 SpA / 252 Spe / 6 Atk
    Earth Power
    Explosion
    Hidden Power Ice (Change to Dragon Pulse?)
    Flamethrower

    Thoughts?
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    Greene1516
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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Greene1516 on Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:52 pm

    For a first team this is good man. Together they have good enough synergy to hold out I reckon. I would suggest Dragon Pulse on Heatran instead of H.P.Ice however, plus Thunderbolt on Gengar instead of H.P.Fire. I'm curious as to why Gengar has Protect though???


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    Painter
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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Painter on Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:54 pm

    no keep hp fire over t-bolt and to answer greenes question it is to scout for pursuit from scizor/tyranitar say for instance you are against scizor you protect to see what it does if it bullet punches then you know you are safe to switch out but if it pursuits then you ohko it with hp fire and focus blast for tyranitar
    i may come back with some suggestions after i finish my homework


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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Greene1516 on Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:03 pm

    Yes but Heatran already counters Scizor and Milotic can wall up a Scizor pretty well also, but nothing on this team can efficiently take on G-dos, hence T-bolt.


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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Painter on Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:06 pm

    another option as a counter to gyarados is using either bold hp electric vaporeon or giving your milotic recover and hp electric over rest + sleep talk cuz when ur asleep you are generally set up fodder


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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Nick E. Paradise on Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:08 pm

    Greene1516 wrote:For a first team this is good man. Together they have good enough synergy to hold out I reckon. I would suggest Dragon Pulse on Heatran instead of H.P.Ice however, plus Thunderbolt on Gengar instead of H.P.Fire. I'm curious as to why Gengar has Protect though???

    Thank you! I've been doing some homework, and you're all super helpful here! And i will switch over to Dragon Pulse. I had HP Ice, but Shoddy keeps telling me that the IV's don't work for it...? And Painter hit Protect on the head. It actually already came in handy on a Tyranitar.

    Painter wrote:no keep hp fire over t-bolt and to answer greenes question it is to scout for pursuit from scizor/tyranitar say for instance you are against scizor you protect to see what it does if it bullet punches then you know you are safe to switch out but if it pursuits then you ohko it with hp fire and focus blast for tyranitar
    i may come back with some suggestions after i finish my homework

    Any particular reason to use one over the other? And any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated!


    Greene1516 wrote:Yes but Heatran already counters Scizor and Milotic can wall up a Scizor pretty well also, but nothing on this team can efficiently take on G-dos, hence T-bolt.

    Ooh, good points. I had some trouble with one already!


    And just an update i've won 2 test battles already! First one 4-2, opponent left after i set up Milotic to sweep, and the second on the very last Pokemon. Pretty intense!
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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Greene1516 on Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:09 pm

    Painter wrote:another option as a counter to gyarados is using either bold hp electric vaporeon or giving your milotic recover and hp electric over rest + sleep talk cuz when ur asleep you are generally set up fodder

    You're not se-up fodder asleep when you have Sleep Talk. Do you not remember my Epic Miltoic stall using RestTalk back in the day??? Wink


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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Painter on Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:12 pm

    rofl cant say i do but also remember that you have a 33% chance of using rest which does nothing and you may be against something that resists one of your 2 attacks so thats 66% you will do like nothing lol
    well all of that and imo resttalk is almost useless on something with instant recovery XD


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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Greene1516 on Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:13 pm

    Painter wrote:rofl cant say i do but also remember that you have a 33% chance of using rest which does nothing and you may be against something that resists one of your 2 attacks so thats 66% you will do like nothing lol
    well all of that and imo resttalk is almost useless on something with instant recovery XD

    You forget that by using Rest Milotic gets rid of status and activates Marvel Scale giving it a 50% boost to defense.


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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Nick E. Paradise on Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:15 pm

    Greene1516 wrote:You forget that by using Rest Milotic gets rid of status and activates Marvel Scale giving it a 50% boost to defense.

    Honestly, i've seen your Milotic in action on youtube, and that's what convinced me of it's power. I was skeptical at first too.
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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Painter on Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:20 pm

    lol yhea thats why i said almost useless ;D


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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by EniliasNailo on Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:18 am

    I would consider taking Hippowdon as lead instead of Donphan

    Donphan's only advantages are a slight more attack and Rapid Spin/Ice Shard
    The thing is, that your Donphan has very little attack, and Ice Shard doesn't even have a guranteed 2HKO on Nijask. Also Mence will be only 2HKO while itself can OHKO with STAB Draco Meteor, and Flygon with some bulk can live 2 Ice Shards, and hit back with Fire Blast
    Rapid Spin isn't needed as 4 of Pokemon Resist SR, 2 are immune to spikes and 4 immune to Toxic Spikes. + Milotic can rest it off.

    Hippowdon has the advantage of adding sandstorm instantly to your team and it has more bulk than donphan (-6 base def but 19 more HP and 12 more SpD) plus Hippo has Slack Off which is a reliable recover move.

    I suggest this Hippo:

    Hippowdon - Impish @Leftovers
    252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD
    Earthquake
    Slack Off
    Stealth Rock
    Roar/Ice Fang

    You should use Roar if you have trouble dealing with Set-Up, but Ice Fang is and Option if you're afraid of Dragons (although Heatran is a good check against Dragon Types, as it resists Draco Meteor/Outrage and can hit back with HP Ice/Dragon Pulse)
    88 SpD are there, so Blissey/Cresselia can only 3HKO with Ice Beam and Sub/Punch TTar can only 3HKO with Ice Beam, making Hippo Counter every version of TTar.
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    Arcanist
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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Arcanist on Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:19 am

    Right, since everyone else has decided to argue with each other (Painter and Greene @_@) lol, Im going to tell you what you have major problems with. First of all, you have a huge problem with the Magnezone / Nasty plot mix ape combo.

    Nasty plot mix ape usually runs grass knot, and after a nasty plot can OHKO Milotic, and Donphan without exception, as well as coming in on something like a HPice Scarfed heatran and Ohko it with Close combat, Not to mention absoultely raping Scizor with Flamethrower after a Nasty plot. Yeah, i know you can switch out to something else like gengar or heatran to save Heatran or Scizor respectivly, but then you have a choice : Am i going to earth power this thing with heatran? The answer is NO. As you know, the ever present Salamence is an annoyance. Salamence comes in on Earth power, Dragon dances, and then nothing on your team can outrun it, so its a clean sweep. And since they usually run Yache berry, Ice shard is useless against it, and with stuff like NP Infernape running rampant over your team, you are in all respects Effed.
    Then the question comes to mind: HAY WHAT IF EYE RUN TEH DRAGON PULSE AND DEN PWN DEM BOTH. Simple answer, Latias or Magnezone. Whether it can be offensive or not, Latias SURVIVES Choice scarf Naive dragon pulse from heatran, and the specially defensive set takes less that a half damage, and then starts calm minding in your face, proceeding to destroy your team with dragon pulse and Surf respectivly. And then again, the Dragon pulse or hidden power ice hits magnezone, and then your in deep trouble man, because Heatran cant run away anymore and gets KILLED KILLED KILLED by Thunderbolt, and then theres nothing to save your team from NP mixape sweep, or Latias for that matter..

    Simply said, you need more than one counter to the following : Salamence, Latias (especially spec defensive set) NP mixape, and Magnezone (WHO CAN KILL SCIZOR ASWELL OMFG [Iknorite scizor dying :O])

    Oh yeah, and blissey can come in and cripple everything with twave except Donphan and Milotic (Rest) and Flygon


    Yeah i know i went insane with the bold print xD




    Oh yeah, I almost forgot, Crocune >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milotic in every way possible
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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Nick E. Paradise on Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:52 pm

    EniliasNailo wrote:I would consider taking Hippowdon as lead instead of Donphan

    Donphan's only advantages are a slight more attack and Rapid Spin/Ice Shard
    The thing is, that your Donphan has very little attack, and Ice Shard doesn't even have a guranteed 2HKO on Nijask. Also Mence will be only 2HKO while itself can OHKO with STAB Draco Meteor, and Flygon with some bulk can live 2 Ice Shards, and hit back with Fire Blast
    Rapid Spin isn't needed as 4 of Pokemon Resist SR, 2 are immune to spikes and 4 immune to Toxic Spikes. + Milotic can rest it off.

    Hippowdon has the advantage of adding sandstorm instantly to your team and it has more bulk than donphan (-6 base def but 19 more HP and 12 more SpD) plus Hippo has Slack Off which is a reliable recover move.

    I suggest this Hippo:

    Hippowdon - Impish @Leftovers
    252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD
    Earthquake
    Slack Off
    Stealth Rock
    Roar/Ice Fang

    You should use Roar if you have trouble dealing with Set-Up, but Ice Fang is and Option if you're afraid of Dragons (although Heatran is a good check against Dragon Types, as it resists Draco Meteor/Outrage and can hit back with HP Ice/Dragon Pulse)
    88 SpD are there, so Blissey/Cresselia can only 3HKO with Ice Beam and Sub/Punch TTar can only 3HKO with Ice Beam, making Hippo Counter every version of TTar.

    I actually was going use Hippowdon to begin with, but worried about the effects of Sandstorm. Would it be alright to run an offensive team with Sandstorm in play? And i like having a spinner to set up my Stealth Rocks and take down theirs.

    Arcanist wrote:Right, since everyone else has decided to argue with each other (Painter and Greene @_@) lol, Im going to tell you what you have major problems with. First of all, you have a huge problem with the Magnezone / Nasty plot mix ape combo.

    Nasty plot mix ape usually runs grass knot, and after a nasty plot can OHKO Milotic, and Donphan without exception, as well as coming in on something like a HPice Scarfed heatran and Ohko it with Close combat, Not to mention absoultely raping Scizor with Flamethrower after a Nasty plot. Yeah, i know you can switch out to something else like gengar or heatran to save Heatran or Scizor respectivly, but then you have a choice : Am i going to earth power this thing with heatran? The answer is NO. As you know, the ever present Salamence is an annoyance. Salamence comes in on Earth power, Dragon dances, and then nothing on your team can outrun it, so its a clean sweep. And since they usually run Yache berry, Ice shard is useless against it, and with stuff like NP Infernape running rampant over your team, you are in all respects Effed.
    Then the question comes to mind: HAY WHAT IF EYE RUN TEH DRAGON PULSE AND DEN PWN DEM BOTH. Simple answer, Latias or Magnezone. Whether it can be offensive or not, Latias SURVIVES Choice scarf Naive dragon pulse from heatran, and the specially defensive set takes less that a half damage, and then starts calm minding in your face, proceeding to destroy your team with dragon pulse and Surf respectivly. And then again, the Dragon pulse or hidden power ice hits magnezone, and then your in deep trouble man, because Heatran cant run away anymore and gets KILLED KILLED KILLED by Thunderbolt, and then theres nothing to save your team from NP mixape sweep, or Latias for that matter..

    Simply said, you need more than one counter to the following : Salamence, Latias (especially spec defensive set) NP mixape, and Magnezone (WHO CAN KILL SCIZOR ASWELL OMFG [Iknorite scizor dying :O])

    Oh yeah, and blissey can come in and cripple everything with twave except Donphan and Milotic (Rest) and Flygon


    Yeah i know i went insane with the bold print xD




    Oh yeah, I almost forgot, Crocune >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milotic in every way possible


    Actually when i first set up Milotic i used a calm nature in addition to the max HP and SpD which will allow it to take a Nasty Plot Grass Knot (say that five times fast!) and counter Specs Salamence and Heatran. But Close Combat can 2Hit it.


    Most of the rest of that is what switching is for... But if you can suggest something to swap on my team to give me better coverage, i'd love to hear it.

    Thanks for the suggestions to the both of you.
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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Daiko on Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:05 pm

    I have to agree with Acanist.
    Crocune is better than Milotic in every way!

    I will also say, Dragon Pulse over HP Ice.
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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Arcanist on Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:12 pm

    Most of the rest of that is what switching is for... But if you can suggest something to swap on my team to give me better coverage, i'd love to hear it.

    Thanks for the suggestions to the both of you.

    Umm what about magnezone? You cant run from magnezone. In fact, even though you can run a +1 DD mence, theres nothing in this team that can stop it from taking out at least 4 or more of your team if its weakened by mixape/latias

    Run Vaporeon maybe? doesent fix your magnezone problem though..
    ELECTIVIRE ELECTIVIRE
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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Daiko on Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:16 pm

    I would suggest a Jolteon, Electivire, Physical Latias or even a Bulky Dragonite
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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Nick E. Paradise on Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:54 pm

    Daiko wrote:I would suggest a Jolteon, Electivire, Physical Latias or even a Bulky Dragonite

    Okay, i've gathered that you can make a monster Vaporeon, can the same be done with a Jolteon? And who on my team should be replaced?

    Also, any thoughts on switching back to a Calm nature on my Milotic?
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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by shinyninetales on Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:22 pm

    First off, congrats for doing this good for a first team.

    Second, gyarados poops all over your whole team once it gets a DD in and the only thing you have to stop it is milotic who becomes fodder most of the time and can't do anything w/o toxic so recover > rest since status bar poison actually helps milotic and toxic/hp electric > sleep talk.

    Third, HP ice > dragon pulse despite what they say or salamence says "O hai Dur lemme get a DD?" and same for things like flygon the only thing you hit with dragon pulse is kingdra who can just set up rain and kill you anyway.

    If I notice any other glaring weakness's I'll come and add them in.
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    Nick E. Paradise
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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Nick E. Paradise on Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:02 pm

    shinyninetales wrote:First off, congrats for doing this good for a first team.

    Second, gyarados poops all over your whole team once it gets a DD in and the only thing you have to stop it is milotic who becomes fodder most of the time and can't do anything w/o toxic so recover > rest since status bar poison actually helps milotic and toxic/hp electric > sleep talk.

    Third, HP ice > dragon pulse despite what they say or salamence says "O hai Dur lemme get a DD?" and same for things like flygon the only thing you hit with dragon pulse is kingdra who can just set up rain and kill you anyway.

    If I notice any other glaring weakness's I'll come and add them in.

    Thank you very much! I'll keep HP Ice then, and i'll definitely take your suggestions on Milotic into consideration.

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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by EniliasNailo on Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:29 am

    Nick E. Paradise wrote:
    EniliasNailo wrote:I would consider taking Hippowdon as lead instead of Donphan

    Donphan's only advantages are a slight more attack and Rapid Spin/Ice Shard
    The thing is, that your Donphan has very little attack, and Ice Shard doesn't even have a guranteed 2HKO on Nijask. Also Mence will be only 2HKO while itself can OHKO with STAB Draco Meteor, and Flygon with some bulk can live 2 Ice Shards, and hit back with Fire Blast
    Rapid Spin isn't needed as 4 of Pokemon Resist SR, 2 are immune to spikes and 4 immune to Toxic Spikes. + Milotic can rest it off.

    Hippowdon has the advantage of adding sandstorm instantly to your team and it has more bulk than donphan (-6 base def but 19 more HP and 12 more SpD) plus Hippo has Slack Off which is a reliable recover move.

    I suggest this Hippo:

    Hippowdon - Impish @Leftovers
    252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD
    Earthquake
    Slack Off
    Stealth Rock
    Roar/Ice Fang

    You should use Roar if you have trouble dealing with Set-Up, but Ice Fang is and Option if you're afraid of Dragons (although Heatran is a good check against Dragon Types, as it resists Draco Meteor/Outrage and can hit back with HP Ice/Dragon Pulse)
    88 SpD are there, so Blissey/Cresselia can only 3HKO with Ice Beam and Sub/Punch TTar can only 3HKO with Ice Beam, making Hippo Counter every version of TTar.

    I actually was going use Hippowdon to begin with, but worried about the effects of Sandstorm. Would it be alright to run an offensive team with Sandstorm in play? And i like having a spinner to set up my Stealth Rocks and take down theirs.

    In fact, it's Damage through the whole battle, and an offensive team defends itself via killing everything that would harm it. and as I mentioned, your team isn't weak at all against entry hazards. Plus Hippowdon can come into a +1 Outrage of Mence and kill it with Ice Fang (after calculating SR damage). Also Infernape's Fire Blast (even with specs) is never an OHKO and Hippowdon always OHKOs with Earthquake (even Sash varients due to sandstorm)
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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Greene1516 on Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:25 am

    shinyninetales wrote:First off, congrats for doing this good for a first team.

    Second, gyarados poops all over your whole team once it gets a DD in and the only thing you have to stop it is milotic who becomes fodder most of the time and can't do anything w/o toxic so recover > rest since status bar poison actually helps milotic and toxic/hp electric > sleep talk.

    Third, HP ice > dragon pulse despite what they say or salamence says "O hai Dur lemme get a DD?" and same for things like flygon the only thing you hit with dragon pulse is kingdra who can just set up rain and kill you anyway.

    If I notice any other glaring weakness's I'll come and add them in.

    Two things here, firstly Dragon Pulse from Heatran will OHKO all standard Salamence, Dragonite, and Flygon, in fact Latias and Altaria are the only dragons in OU that can withstand it. Plus don't forget that SR damage will tear through Dragonite and Mence before Heatran gets to it. It is also more reliable for the predictable Heatran in that only other steels resist it, and they normal won't switch into Heatran.

    A note on Marvel Scale, once you get statused your defense gets a 50% boost; this doesn't go away when the status is healed, which is why Rest > Recover, because not only can it heal off the other status after you get your defense up, but if you son't get statused the Rest doesn't that for you.


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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by EniliasNailo on Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:23 pm

    Two things here, firstly Dragon Pulse from Heatran will OHKO all standard Salamence, Dragonite, and Flygon, in fact Latias and Altaria are the only dragons in OU that can withstand it. Plus don't forget that SR damage will tear through Dragonite and Mence before Heatran gets to it. It is also more reliable for the predictable Heatran in that only other steels resist it, and they normal won't switch into Heatran.

    HP Ice vs. Dragon Pulse

    Dragon Pulse Damages against OU Dragons with ScarfTran:

    252/252 Careful Dragonite: 142 - 168 (36.8% - 43.5%)
    252/0 Timid Mence: 238 - 280 (60.4% - 71.1%)
    4/0 Jolly Flygon: 238 - 280 (78.8% - 92.7%)
    128/0 Timid Latias: 158 - 186 (47.4% - 55.9%)
    252/56 Calm Altaria: 162 - 192 (45.8% - 54.2%)
    0/0 Adamant Kingdra: 206 - 244 (70.8% - 83.8%)

    Hidden Power Ice vs. the same:

    252/252 Careful Dragonite: 224 - 264 (58% - 68.4%)
    252/0 Timid Mence: 368 - 436 (93.4% - 110.7%)
    4/0 Jolly Flygon: 368 - 436 (101.1% - 119.8%)
    128/0 Timid Latias: 124 - 146 (37.2% - 43.8%)
    252/56 Calm Altaria: 252 - 300 (71.2% - 84.7%)
    0/0 Adamant Kingdra: 80 - 94 (27.5% - 32.3%)

    As you can see, Dragon Pulse hits only Latias slightly harder and Kingdra is 2HKO, but HP Ice sells much better against Dragonite, Mence, Flygon and Altaria, as it doesn't even OHKO one of them, even after SR Damage (Flygon only with a very slim chance) HP Ice is a guranteed OHKO to the later three (Altaria after SR has an around 80% chance to get OHKOed) and turns the 3HKO on Dragonite to a 2HKO. (If it roosts, none of them will do much to Dragonite)
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    Greene1516
    Admin

    Posts : 174
    Join date : 2009-12-17
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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Greene1516 on Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:37 pm

    Sorry this needs to said, but who on earth trains a Mence in 252HP???


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    Nick E. Paradise
    Novice Trainer

    Posts : 35
    Join date : 2010-01-05
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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

    Post by Nick E. Paradise on Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:32 pm

    I'm not gonna lie guys, you've officially gone over my head... Haha.
    I appreciate all the help, but i no longer understand what is even being debated...

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    Re: Paradise's 1st Competitive Team

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